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Sunday, September 30, 2012

In Defense of Israel

Isolationists typically put American blood over every other consideration, even American blood.  They do this without realizing it. Israel, whether one sees it as simply an independent nation or not, it is one of the few democracies in the world, Japan is another, along with Germany. What these two nations have in common is they were our enemies during World War II. Therefore, we wrote their existence.  Due to atrocities committed by the Germans, without aid, Israel became a protected nation, by us, the victorious nation.

The fact is, whether isolationists want to acknowledge it or not, is that we, America, have been players on the international stage for a long time now. We are the lone superpower, even though Obama has largely played us off as a third world nation. Our presence on the international stage is integral to our own security.

When it comes to Israel, it is important for us to support their efforts to deal with the Muslim hoards. They are a democracy and while we are a republic, each answers to the people in one way or another, which I hope most would recognize as a valuable aspect to any nation. There are dictatorships all across the globe, war-mongering, empirical nations that seek to do harm to any and every democracy, or republic. In short, we have few friends, we should nurture those friendships, protect those who need it and be ready to support them all if needed, lest we foster a world of Castros and Chavezes who seek the destruction of our nation.

Where isolationists get it wrong in my book is that they assume all will leave us alone if we are not a part of the disagreement. This tack did not work in World War II and it will not work today. Leaving our enemies to fight the destructionists like Hitler only lets them build resources with which to engage us. Conquered nations supply resources that the hostile nation cannot produce itself with its limited area and economy. As one nation devours another it becomes stronger and yes, it does sacrifice a lot of material and men along the way, but it recoups those losses in increased industry and conscripted men.

The death of Israel would not put an end to the Middle East debate, it would focus the would-be car bombers on the other great pain in the side of the Muslims: America. Was not 9-11 enough? We had no real stake in the game where Vietnam was concerned other than the spreading of communism throughout Asia. Our focus might have been off, but that war was started by the Cold War and the Cold War is over, but the fight to preserve our way of life and the ultimate blood of the civilian population is not.

There are not fewer enemies to consider than Germany and Japan, but more, much more since the "Arab Spring." The Arab Spring only illuminates the need for allies, allies we are dedicated to preserving, because they are other beacons of freedom and liberty. Anyone who does not understand this does not understand the global implications of abandoning our allies.

Right now, Arab nations are increasing, Islamcism is not shrinking, it is growing and with it is a desire to see the end of America. Would I sacrifice the blood of soldiers over the blood of my daughter? Yes. Why? Very simply, because they are much better trained and equipped to defend themselves and the nation than my daughter.

Defending the ideals of freedom and liberty is costly, especially in a world largely and convincingly in the hands of despots and villains. How cutting loose from our protection any nation that has demonstrated an understanding of liberty is going to somehow benefit our nation is beyond me. Our soldiers might have to spill their blood in the defense of the American way and it will only come at a higher price once we have allowed our allies to fend for themselves without the equipment, the skills, or the knowledge that the U.S. fighting man possesses.

Were it not for the long-term support of the Unites States, in our defense of Israel, Palestinians would be pouring through our southern border like locusts, spilling not the blood of our vigilant servicemen, but the blood of our citizens, the same as it is done now Israel.

To view Israel is to get an understanding of what America  could be if left to defend itself alone from these brutal and cowardly human beings.

So, if isolationists bring up Vietnam as a reason to not defend those who are defending us, they are living in a past decade, a different world from that which now exists. I did not support the war in Vietnam, nor do I support the war in Iraq, but the wars seem to continue, do they not? Since America is not an empire and has always secured leadership in the nations we have conquered, rather than taking over their land and bringing their ancient hostilities in our direction, it is much preferable to save the blood of Americans by helping to thwart our enemies than to direct their attention solely on us.

33 comments:

  1. So goes Israel so goes America, so goes Judea Christian rule of law.
    So goes Liberty.
    Those who want to destroy the world do not take time out, it is what they do, it is all they do.

    Neither can we who cherish Liberty.

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    1. Hey MT....there is an unconstitutional occupant in the West Wing; soetoro-obama ! Instead of worrying about Israel I would think you neocons would have more concern for the enemies amongst us, right here in our homeland.

      "Rule of Law" ? It was killed when soetoro-obama was nominated and buried when the SoB was inaugerated.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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  2. Israel deserves our support, for such reasons as you listed, TL. But, as I have said many times to the anti-Semites who whine and snivel about "not spilling the blood of our boys" fighting for Israel, I repeat: no need to send our troops over there, just stay out of Israel's way and don't interfere. They will kick muslim ass all over the Middle East without any help from us, if Obama and the other worthless scumbags in our government will leave them alone to take care of business.

    Obama would love to see Israel destroyed, and those that find that possibility desirable should be honest enough to vote for the muslim-loving Bastard-in-Chief.

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    1. So, once again Reggie, I ask you to define "support for Israel". You haven't done so yet and I expect that you won't again.

      You write a lot of garbage Reggie. But you don't possess the testicular fortitude that G-D gave a piss ant.

      I gave you my HOR months ago Reggie. You have visited yet.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    2. Well Reggie I see you are still supporting the murderous Israelis with your "support". Israelis who murdered 34 Americans and wounded 174, destroying an American vessel in International waters, and you still turn your back on the country of your birth.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    3. Don't you ever get tired of repeating the same old childish tripe, Dan? Grow up, little man. You ignore everything said unless it fits your warped little world view which demands that all of us hate the Jooz just like you do.

      You are pathetic. TL and others try to be gentle with you, because they are gentlemen, but anyone still possessing a modicum of intelligence simply accepts you are damaged beyond the ability of reason and logic to repair your whining and sniveling about Israel.

      Snivel on, little buddy. Israel doesn't need our help, even though you keep insisting they want it. Good thing they don't have to listen to you ignore the facts while you dribble and drool out your senseless hatred of all things Jewish. I enjoy your silly little shots at me, because it demonstrates to everyone how ignorant and pathetic you are. Keep it up, Danny. I'm sure they love you in the Aryan chat rooms.

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    4. Well Reggie I read your continuing personal attacks against me and the accusation that I hate Jews because I oppose American support for Israel.

      You say Israel doesn't need our support ? Then why don't your beloved Israelis return the billions of American dollars we've given them. While your boy Netanyahu stands on the floor of the American Congress and says "Israel doesn't need American help" he doesn't refuse to take our foreign aid does he ?

      You Reggie are so Alinsky-like. You ridicule me once again and claim that commenters here are so much like "gentlemen"
      to me. While I, in turn, am nothing but a knuckle-dragging, Jew-hating, anti-semite buffoon, who doesn't have the good manners to agree with everything you Neocons spout about "liberty", freedom, and the American-murdering Israeli government you love so much. Gee Reggie, when you going to start practicing the "good manners" you preach to me about my not having ?

      My dear Reginald, I've challenged you more than once to put your money where your Israel supporting commentary is. I.e, why not emigrate to Israel ? You've ignored that. I asked you how much of your personal wealth you've sent the Israeli GOVERNMENT ? Your response ? You wrote you give money to American-based Jewish charities. My, how supportive you are of your beloved murderous Israeli .gov you are !

      In this topic thread you refered to me and other "America First" Patriots as anti-Semite. When I indicated to you that your ad hominem attack that Anti-Israeli = Anti-Semite is no different from the collectivist/statist/Marxist argument that anti soetoro-obama is racist, you ignored that analogous question. Instead, like always in response to my questions of you, you refuse to answer my pertinent questions. Instead you pull out your well-worn copy of Alnsky's 'Rules For Radicals' and insult me with ranting and name-calling and ridicule of me, that if you had the testicles to do such face-to-face with me, you'd earn an ass-kicking like you've never had before in your life. Oh and Reginald....I provided you my home address in the past. You're welcome to come visit and say to my face what you keyboard warrior here.

      So Reginald, in closing my ungentlemanly response to your childish, name-calling rant against me, I want you to understand that I consider you a hypocrite and coward. You are a cowardly hypocrite who professes one thing and does another. When your insincere beliefs are challenged you refuse to answer intelligently. Rather you make personal, insulting attacks against me in the form of an extremely immature childish rant. How entertaining you are !

      So Reginald you have my home address. You have a personal
      but ungentlemanly invite by me, to come visit and say to my face the trash you offer me as the keyboard warrior you are.

      Luv Ya Reginald....hehehehehe. !

      DAN III
      "There ARE Enemies Amongst Us"

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  3. Mr. Davis,

    You are correct, we will never agree on this subject of defending Israel. Israel, is NOT an American responsibility no matter how one tries to justify the offering up of American blood and treasure for the Israelis.

    I'm saddened by your attack on patriotic Americans by calling us "isolationists". This is a term always used in a negative connotation.against American citizens who are tired of flag-draped coffins and body bags thru Dover from some foreign land.

    When you speak or write of "defending" Israel what do you mean by that ? You refused to address my challenge of you....why have you not offered your personal services to the Israeli Defense Forces ? Have you personally sent money, your money not mine, to the government of Israel ? If not why not ?

    Why is the 2d ID still in Korea ? 20,000 Americans defending a soveriegn nation from their northern neighbor. Let South Korea defend South Korea and bring home those 20,000 GIs and put them on AMERICAN borders.

    Come on T.L., I'm the only person who has made reference to our failed adventure in SE Asia....Vietnam. You call me an "isolationist". I'm not. I am a non-interventionist. I believe in trade amongst countries; fair trade. I believe in defending our country both militarily and economically. But having troops in more than 100 nations across the globe is indicative of imperialism.

    I offer you the example of the defunct Roman Empire however you will dismiss that historical
    reference as not applicable because it disappeared so many centuries ago. You will denigrate the history of my Roman Empire example as you did my example of our debacle in South Vietnam because you claim the passage of time has made the mistake of American treasure and blood there, 58,000 dead Americans, hundreds of thousands of dead South and North Vietnamese as so much irrelevance. Sad.

    So Mr. Davis, what are YOU willing to do PERSONALLY to defend Israel other than offer up the collective blood and treasure of our fellow Americans ?

    Dismissing the experiences of history, of the past, will only insure the same mistakes today and in the future. And T.L. know this....Israel is NOT our "friend". This country has no friends, only interests.

    Let us agree to disagree on this issue. Hope all is well with you T.L.

    Dan Galena (DAN III)

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    1. Dan, I apologize for not having the time to respond to your challenge, or to justify my defense of Israel in an appropriate manner, but even though I have justified my position from a world-view, my interests are only with America.

      My defense of Israel does not come from myself, or my country's servicemen, so much as it does from freeing them from our restrictions. Let them go and do what they might without risking American support, that is all. That is my sum of defense for Israel, it is a political support, not a physical support unless the only way to defend ourselves is from defending them.

      I will say that my father fought in the Korean War, a war which cost 35,000 lives in three years. In short, it was a blood-bath that my father was lucky to come home from as a frontline machinegunner. And, having said that I side with you, let South Korea defend itself. Bring the troops home. Bring them out of Germany at this point and Japan as well, if it pleases us. I don't care about them, but the warriors fighting the Islamists deserve our political support, more than that, I would have to consider the implications to this nation alone.

      I think that I am just not blinded by the idea that any foreign war is a bad one. Every foreign war is better than a domestic one. World Wars I & II were foreign wars under that definition and I consider both of them legitimate candidates for our action.

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  4. Well RegT we meet again. Once again you attack me as an "anti-semite" because I oppose US, as you call it, support for the sovereign nation of Israel ? Here's a clue for you neocon....not all Israelis are Jews.

    Your ad hominem attacks are so Saul Alinsky-like. Your anti-semite attacks against me are no different than calling those people criticizing soetoro-obama racists. Are you claiming that any person criticizing Israel is anti-semite or criticizing a black person is automatically racist ? Seems to me with your mentality Israelis and blacks can do no wrong. How Progressive of you.

    DAN III
    "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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  5. Amazing. While AmeriKa has become the slut/pimp of the world and attempts to spread its slutty/pimpish brand of democracy (Wait! Or republic?) around the globe by no holds barred economic and/or brute military force, the land of the foul must support foul Israel from their foul neighbors?

    This is just but another reason why I am so done with the schizophrenic patriot movement after 30 years. The whole world, including patriots, are so busy trying to pick the beam out of everyone eyes, but can't, because of the beam in their own eyes.

    Americans need to start worrying about their own hordes in their own backyards. When the land of Israel gets back to its roots... they won't have to beg and manipulate us into doing their wars for/with them... it is written. And that goes just as well for the AmeriKans. Every single time the Jews relied on another nation to bail them out, rather than G-d... it always came back to bite them.

    You want to bless Israel? Pray for them. And pray that the Lord will open their eyes. Unfortunately, their eyes, as it is written, will not be opened but for a cataclysmic event.

    If being a "patriot" means I and my fellow Americans must go and fight for Israel, then I want no part of it. Why don't you take those same "patriots" that you want to use to defend Israel from their hordes, and use them here at home to defend us from our own hordes? And then, when the beam has been pulled from our own slutty/pimpish ways, we'll be able to see and discern more clearly the beam is everyone else's eyes.

    And lets clear this up right now. The Israeli government is NOT our friend anymore than we are their friends. We may use each other when to our advantage when each see it fit to their own measure... but we are not friends.

    I mean really... AmeriKa? The holy crusaders?

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    1. Curtis, I do not believe that being a patriot requires the support of Israel, it is a personal point of view, rather than a litmus test for that title.

      As I wrote in response to Dan, my interest in Israel rests primarily with their efforts to fight a common enemy. Yes, there are historical ties, but ultimately, they are on the front line of the fight against Islamicism and deserve not our blood, or even treasure, but political support to do what they think necessary to preserve their own nation without our aid or hinderance.

      I have no love for Israel, but see it only as a political ally in the fight against the surging Islamic powers of the world.

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    2. I'll just use the words from my own blog:

      See, you think this is a war on Islam… that is just posturing… a tool being fine tuned… Order out of Chaos… when the NWO has absolutely no room for the Judeo-Christian values, as it is written.

      This is why I refuse to play in the game. The biggest threat to YOU is not some 6,000 miles away, but right in your own back yard. It amazes me that people fall for their schizophrenic predictive programming. That somehow, AmeriKa is the savior of Israel. As it is written, Israel has ONLY ONE Savior. AND IT IS NOT YOU. And it IS NOT Amerika. YOU… will not stand on the Mount and save Israel.


      Israel is the target…

      http://battlefieldusa.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/israel-is-the-target/

      And I'll throw this in too...

      http://battlefieldusa.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/pimping-the-prostitutes/

      You are free to your opinion TL, but there is nothing you or I are going to do to change the future of Israel. All one can do is pray for them... and... if you sincerely want to help them, then IT STARTS in your own backyard. Sorry to say, but I think anyone who believes that our dealings in the Middle East, Persia, and N. Africa is for some AmeriKan benevolent cause of liberty and freedom everywhere... has a screw loose. It is nothing more than an attempt to RESTRUCTURE them into the NWO... which is going to FAIL. And I am not going to take part in it. AmeriKa is NOT on some holy Christian cause.

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    3. Mr. Davis....do you read what you write ?

      You tell Curtis Israel deserves only our "political" support (how do you define that ?). Then you respond to Napalm Bodywash stating you want to give up more American blood and treasure supporting Israel. You tell Napalm Americans should defend Israel with political support (treasure) and military strength (blood). Huh ???? Isn't that doublespeak ? Contradictory ?

      Pehaps you and RegT can swill another glass of Kool-Aid together ? It appears you both drink from the same pitcher.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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  6. "Were it not for the long-term support of the Unites States, in our defense of Israel, Palestinians would be pouring through our southern border like locusts, spilling not the blood of our vigilant servicemen, but the blood of our citizens, the same as it is done now Israel.

    To view Israel is to get an understanding of what America could be if left to defend itself alone from these brutal and cowardly human beings." What??? With all due respect to you and the time and effort you put into your blog, this falls about mile short of making any sense. You "supporters" of Israel are like this pathetic, over-bearing, hyper-intrusive, controlling mother who absolutely refuses to allow her children to be independent. Furthermore, you're all akin to these idiot progressives who demand government take care of us from cradle to grave to protect us from the issues that life throws at us because you have all lost your Faith. Additionally, you completely ignore the fact that Netanyahu came out and said on the floor of Congress, "we don't need America to protect us" It simply doesn't get any plainer than that...

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    1. Again, Napalm, I don't want to coddle it, but to free it, to let it defend itself with our political support and military strength to bolster the political support.

      I have not considered military action to support Israel, that would have to be made under a very specific set of guidelines.

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    2. Gee T.L., why don't we annex Israel as a territory and commence to make it the 51st state or 58th state if you are the illegal Kenyan ?

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

      Delete
  7. canot run our own country very well,lets tell the rest of the world how 2 doit in theirs.i have more in common with that siventh centary goathearder than those fucks who used 2 run my life.halfassed ashamed i served in the beasts machine.a good little killer.Liberty
    somewhare in the traingle

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  8. "Were it not for the long-term support of the Unites States, in our defense of Israel, Palestinians would be pouring through our southern border like locusts, spilling not the blood of our vigilant servicemen, but the blood of our citizens, the same as it is done now Israel.

    "To view Israel is to get an understanding of what America could be if left to defend itself alone from these brutal and cowardly human beings."

    One of the problems with offering utility arguments like these, is that it makes other utility arguments legitimate in response. In this case, those would be all the arguments about how we "piss everyone off" in the area and make it more likely for them to give us nightmares.

    Personally, I suck at Pragmatism and don't even try to sort out utility arguments, except for my own actions of course. While they probably shudder at my agreement, I do think Curtis and Dan have it right--at least in principle--that American wealth, and especially blood, shouldn't be exported to other countries except pursuant to the personal decisions of those who own the wealth or the blood.

    Maybe one day I'll get them to realize that this principle holds true in all cases, and that changing "Israeli" for "American" doesn't somehow negate it. I OWN MYSELF and no person could ever have any "right" to trump MY decisions as to how to spend my earned wealth, let alone how to spill my own blood.

    To deny this is to deny the FACT of ownership.

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    1. My dear Klein....the problem with your "OWN MYSELF" argument is that you haven't put your money where your mouth is.

      While you scoff at even the taxation for the limited .gov services it was intended for you continue to drive on .gov roadways. You continue to drink & bathe from .gov water sources. You continue to monitor weather forecasts provided by the fed .gov (NOAA). You continue to buy motor fuels that are heavily taxed by the Fed & Michigan .govs. You continue to purchase goods taxed by your Mich .gov. You continue to support the foreign country of Israel and in turn the use of US tax dollars to do such. You continue to have and possess your very own FDR created Social Security Number. You've seen and lived the destruction of the great American automobile in Detroit. Yet you still welcome the invasion of Commie Chinese goods into this nation state because you care not for protection of American jobs. Rather you welcome the dumping of cheaply produced goods by foreign nations into our economy. In turn US citizens produce nothing and consume everything in the form of foreign goods purchased without tariff, through your beloved "free trade"; foreign goods produced by workers from countries that tilt the market in their favor with government supported industries. Your Ludwig von Mises mentality just doesn't jibe with your beliefs and how you actually live your life. It is hypocrisy.

      While you continue to "support" Israel and other nation-states across the globe with American wealth plundered in the form of free trade encouraged by the 16th Amendment and the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, you ignore the US Constitution and our Bill of Rights.

      You see my dear Klein, unlike you who has an obvious disdain for our Founding Fathers and our Constitution I, on the other hand, am a believer in a very limited and specific form of US government, as outlined by our Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.

      Nowhere in our founding documents does it suggest Americans support foreign countries "like us" or one deems as "our friend". President George Washington warned Americans of involvement in foreign entanglements. It appears that you, along with many others have dismissed that good advice with your love of "free trade" and support (with American blood & treasure) of foreign nations.

      Thank you Jim Klein, Ludwig von Mises and many other Americans of your ilk. You've contributed to the decline of the USA to third world status.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    2. Sorry for the delay, Dan, I'm just seeing this now. First, you know nothing about me or how I live my life...what water I drink or where I spend my money. You're pretty decent with the facts, so why do you bother with the guesses?

      Next, I'm not sure how you translate,

      "I do think Curtis and Dan have it right--at least in principle--that American wealth, and especially blood, shouldn't be exported to other countries except pursuant to the personal decisions of those who own the wealth or the blood."

      Into,

      "You continue to support the foreign country of Israel and in turn the use of US tax dollars to do such."

      You seem to do an okay job speaking for yourself; maybe you ought to allow me the same courtesy. And even if you don't, I'm sure you'd be better off giving an honest translation.

      But mainly, this is what you ought to think about IMO. You wrote, "I, on the other hand, am a believer in a very limited and specific form of US government, as outlined by our Founding Fathers in the Declaration of Independence and our Constitution."

      Well, here we are, 223 years after exactly what you say you believe in. Yes, really. The Constitution, that YOU say YOU "believe in" was ratified in 1789. This is what it has wrought, and this is the FACT of the matter. You can wiggle and rationalize all you wish, but it's all on the record---the Constitution that YOU say YOU believe in, WAS ratified and THIS is where we are NOW.

      And now you're griping about where we are, just like me. So what is it you want, a do-over or something? Sorry, you ALREADY got what you "believe in," and take a look around.

      Here's what you really mean, Dan, and you tell me if I'm wrong. You want people to ABIDE the Constitution, right? You want those PRINCIPLES to guide the government, right? You want a society where the IDEAS are MANIFESTED, like "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." You want those rights in the BoR to be HONORED, especially by those who control the overwhelming force and its attendant power to tax. Right? Spit it out...am I right that this is what you want, or not?

      Here's my suggestion to you, Dan. Instead of wishing for a do-over of something you KNOW didn't work, all of your beliefs notwithstanding, why don''t you wake up and understand that the missing piece, the FACT that has caused all this to happen, is exactly what I say?

      You see, it's not just, "I own myself." It's that you own yourself as well. And so does everyone else. That's WHY people don't abide the Constitution. That's WHY blood and treasure is taken from some and given to others.

      You have a fundamental contradiction, Dan, and contradictions don't exist except in minds. You both believe in the Constitution and you don't believe in the Constitution. You manage this, as all people manage all contradictions, by sundering the idea from reality. You like the IDEA of "the Constitution," but you don't like what the Constitution brought us. Well sorry, there's only one reality and in THAT reality, the Constitution is as the Constitution does. And you don't like that too much, do you?

      Now you take what I'm offering as an axiomatic fact, that "I own myself" and its corollary, "Every human is likewise situated," and try to point out the contradiction there. There isn't one, of course, and that's why you'll either be honest and acknowledge this, or continue on with your attempts at personal insult in order to distract.

      Your choice. Duh...that's what it MEANS to own yourself.

      So before you conclude what everyone should be forced to do and forcefully prohibited from buying, how about you begin at the beginning with the simplest of facts, and THEN try to figure out how to have a civil society built of something other than contradiction?

      Does that make any sense?

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    3. My dear Klein....again you spew much rhetoric. I've opined to you before that any nation state needs taxation. The US Constitution allowed for taxation. Unfortunately, it is necessary. Roads, bridges, sewers, waterlines....require taxation. But it needs to be minimal taxation.

      The US Constitution does work. But it has been compromised. As Fanklin said "We have given you a Republic....if you can keep it".

      Sorry Jim....I don't buy into your whining that I insulted you with my last piece. If you feel insulted GOOD. I do know that you partake in many taxpayer-funded Detroit city services. I outlined them earlier. Although you didn't deny using those taxpayer-funded services, you tried to deny such use by stating that I "don't know the water" you "drink" or "how" you spend your money. Overall that is partially correct. But you are paying taxes to fund your city services and your collectivist politician's pensions.

      You ask me in your closing if you make sense. Not in my mind you do. You spewed much rhetoric with no specific substance. You also refused to answer my earlier questions of you. How Alinsky-like.

      Take a look around that once gleaming jewel of American pride ....the now shithole you live in called Detroit. There is your freedom "to choose". There is what "free trade" has wrought America. There in your own backyard is the result of the von Mises mentality.

      My dear Klein....your reasoning makes no sense to me. Oh, and please dispense with playing the victim. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    4. Victim? Moi? Don't sweat it; I feel no such thing, at least not here and not from you. BTW "I'm from Detroit" meant that I started there, not that I'm there now. I got the hell away from big cities several years ago. And you don't know the half of what a shit-hole it became, going from one of the finest cities in the world to a socialist hell-hole. I watched the whole thing, up close.

      Sorry that what I write makes no sense to you. It might be worth your time to work on that, since collectivism is the philosophical foundation of socialism. Ultimately, whether you see it or not, the battle is between individualism and collectivism.

      Here's the problem with your free-trade stance. It's a complex instance of the Broken Glass Fallacy, which is the entire point of Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson." You correctly identify a problem--Americans buying cheap-shit goods from slave states--and so you come up with an answer to THAT problem, specifically "Don't let 'em." You've got all that right, but the Broken Glass Fallacy is about not seeing everything else that's happening or not happening.

      Philosophically, you're sacrificing a higher principle for a lower one, in this case that NOBODY has ANY business forcing ANYONE to do or not do anything, in the absence of that person stopping someone else's freedom to do the same. Commonly, this is called the "Non-Aggression Principle" and it makes tons of sense as an ethical primary, at least in a social context.

      Worse for you, this is EXACTLY how the commie-libs get away with their bullshit. They're trying to "fix problems" too, supposedly...kids should eat well, old people should get health care, airports should be protected and on and on and on forever.

      IOW you've reduced yourself to playing on THEIR philosophical turf, agreeing with them that people ought to be FORCED to do "what's right." Well sorry, but that's WRONG. People are volitional creatures and if you want to treat things as they are, the irrational must be just as free to make their own decisions as the rational are. This shouldn't scare you; reality will take care of separating the idiots from the decent folk. They won't survive; duh. Only through SUBSIDY do they manage to make it in this world, not to mention multiply like locusts.

      I understand that you don't see the connection, because your ends are so much better than the ends of the commie-libs. That may be true enough, but the ends DON'T justify the means, when the means ends up sacrificing a higher principle than the end itself.

      It's NOT a fight to figure out the best ends. You've got yours, I've got mine and the commie-libs have theirs. It's a fight to live AS HUMANS, which means to treat things as they are, especially other humans. That's all.

      Think about it, and don't worry about any insults. I'm no hypocrite---I can take the heat as well as dish it out. And believe this---I don't take being classified with von Mises as any sort of insult at all!

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    5. My dear Klein....again you ignore history. You've chosen to make your argument philosophically, not factually. The greatest period of growth in this nation was.during heavy TARIFFS against.imports, namely British in the 19th century. As I stated earlier to you, and which you ignored in Alinsky-like fashion, the growth of fed .gov grew immeasurably with the introduction of the 16th amendment and the 4th iteration of the illegal Federal Reserve, which in turn gave us unending wars, conflicts, an end to limited .gov sustained by tariff, and an outpouring of Americans not producing but only consuming.

      BTW....tariff does not mean you can't buy your beloved foreign-produced goods. It just means you'll pay more for the POS Commie Chinese widget than the one manufactured by your American neighbor. Tariff is economic protection.

      As I earlier stated....look at the TRILLIONS of dollars in trade deficit the US has with the Red Chinese alone. That deficit resulting in just 15 short years due to PNTR agreed upon by the back-stabbing Republican controlled Congress and.approved by the traitorous adulterer-in-chief bill clinton.

      Jimmie....you're an ideologue and a foolish one at that. You attempt to make sensible argument by your use of rhetoric and emotions. You can't. Instead you make tongue-in-cheek refererence that I hold socialist, Marxist, collectivist principles because I believe in protection of America from the dumping of foreign goods and subsequent loss of American jobs and US sovereignty.

      Von Mises theories were just that....theories. They've never worked and never will. Once more I'll suggest to you.that you.depart this nation-state and move to....Israel or anywhere else for that matter. Perhaps you'll find your utopia elsewhere. As we both know it is certainly not here in the Commie Chinese owned, former great nation of the USA.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    6. "BTW....tariff does not mean you can't buy your beloved foreign-produced goods."

      That's your best line, I think; I thought of it before you wrote it. It's still all about force and that's all any of this is about. If a tariff causes a guy to pay more for his goods, then it's taking something else away from him that he might have bought, or at the very least causing the good to require more of his time of life to earn.

      Correlation is not causation. You don't know what growth would've been in the absence of tariffs. This is yet another instance of the Broken Glass Fallacy. You're not factoring in co-incident things that could very well be relevant, and indeed probably are.

      Of course I'm an "ideologue" of sorts and absolutely I'm arguing philosophy. So are you, whether you admit it or not. ALL people are ALWAYS arguing philosophy in one manner or another---that's what it means to think and develop principles.

      But you're the one arguing emotionally. When everything is stripped away, there's something you don't LIKE. That's alright; there's plenty I don't like either. The difference between us is that you wish to use the force of the government--and that's ALL the government has to use, is force--to accomplish what you like, or prohibit what you dislike.

      Almost everyone is peaceable and just wants to live their lives. Few and far between are the rapists and murderers and thieves, and they're hardly any threat at all. The threat comes from the peaceable folk who want to assign their use of force to a third party-let's call it Govco--and pretend that by doing that, they remain peaceable. Well, that's wrong---a principal having an agent do his dirty work, doesn't remove his responsibility.

      All I'm saying is that tariffs are an instance of this, as is all taxation and all prohibitions against all actions that don't directly--which means PHYSICALLY--impede the freedom of another person to choose. Sure it's rhetoric, but rhetoric is what you use too, every time you think, not to mention every time you write. I'm not sure what you propose as better---do you think everyone ought to be shooting everyone else in pursuit of that which they like?

      Look, your case is strong why a purchaser shouldn't buy goods imported from a slave-state. Being a Michigander, I'm quite aware of this and it does factor into my purchasing decisions, as few as they are these days. I say the same thing about being in the Olympics over there; I thought it was disgusting. The relevant question is how shall our wisdom be passed to others---through persuasion, rhetoric and appeals to their rationality, or through the guns of government as a means of forcing people to do what we believe, as if they were horses or cattle?

      I say the former and you say the latter. That's our fundamental disagreement since on the details we generally agree. Disagreement is no sin of course, but disagreement with me often indicates an error.

      LOL...is it rhetoric if it's true?

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    7. I don't want to leave you in the clouds, Dan, so there's this too. The moral being the practical, your argument fails on utility grounds as well. Let's take a real-world example. A Mahindra tractor probably costs 75%, maybe less, than an equivalent Deere. "Nothing runs like a Deere," so IMO it's no-brainer...considering maintenance and durability, the Deere is clearly the better buy. But there may be thousands of people on the margin who, RIGHT NOW, THIS YEAR, can't afford the Deere but can afford the Mahindra.

      The question is obvious...who the hell are you, or me or our agents through Govco, to tell those buyers what they should or should not buy? THAT'S the problem, in principle. Shall a prepper wait another year or two, maybe in the face of death, to wait for that Deere? Shall a farmer go out of business, for want of not having a tractor? Even if YOU believe they should, it's not YOUR life and so not YOUR decision. That's why, "I own myself" is so important.

      And then, of course, you've got all the attendant problems of protecting a manufacturer's turf, and the facts bear this out as well. Without the competition of Mahindra, Deere could cut corners and offer a lesser product and even charge more for it. We see this time and time again in Govco-protected industries, and you know it.

      Sure it's wrong that Mahindras are produced in a slave-state and no, I don't think it's right that purchasers indirectly support such a slave-state with their decisions. But that's just not the question--the question is whether you or I, or our agents, have any business forcing others to do as we wish. When those others are Americans, and part of the society we choose to live in, the answer is, "No." Period.

      I'll let you deal with the insanity that while it's wrong to buy goods from slave-states, it's somehow right to borrow to infinity from them, in order to feed our particular sort of slave-state. That's not right either, is it? But that's exactly what your Constitutional government is doing, isn't it? You can't wish away this fact either, you know.

      The answer is LMFA---leave me the f**k alone. I'll figure out what's right and wrong, and so will everyone else. If they don't, then reality will take care of setting them straight. Or, if you're religious, then God will take care of it. Either way, it ain't ours to do. Get it?

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    8. I've provided you substantial reasoning and factual argument. This country is in a third world status thanks to free trade and plain and simple assholes like you. You've failed to disprove any of my facts. You've refused to acknowledge the requirement of a citizenry to pay minimal taxes for simple things like paved roads and running water. You Jim Klein are a flaming asshole. I hope that insult has an impact on your way of thinking, but it won't.

      I'd wish you a rotting in hell but I'd rather your von Mises, Keynes, Karl Marx mentality brings you an opportunity to suffer here on earth. You are truly an enemy amongst us. Most certainly you are no one I would associate with, under any circumstance.

      You are a waste of time and bandwidth.

      Dan III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    9. "I hope that insult has an impact on your way of thinking, but it won't."

      Hey, at least you got one thing right. That ain't much, but it's something.

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    10. Klein....you've never disputed or argued factually, any of my statements of fact. There was nothing in the large amounts of gibberish you posted that supported your argument of no taxes. My points of fact were most accurate and correct. Yours on the other hand....well, you had none. Just senseless commentary.

      Look at the US trade deficit with the Red.Chinese. Look at the unemployent, the under-employed. Look at the price of fuel, the price of food. Look at our constant wars. But you refuse to acknowledge these results of the 16th Amendment, the Federal Reserve and your "free trade"

      I'm sure you look in the mirror everyday and lie to yourself as you tell yourself, time and time again "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right". If that allows you to go about your inconsequential day, so be it. But for me you are truly a flaming asshole without substance and no common sense.

      DAN III
      "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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    11. "Klein....you've never disputed or argued factually, any of my statements of fact."

      Of course I do; I dispute nearly all of them in this discussion, even as I agreed with the ones that got you going. You just like to pick and choose. You've got me being some Marxist/socialist (and von Mises too!); you've got me supporting the 16th amendment; you've got me backing the Federal Reserve.

      Every one of those is plainly FALSE, yet you just go on and on. And since your style is always to accuse your interlocuter of what you fantasize [TL as a Neocon? Really, now.] and anyone who disagrees with you is an "enemy amongst us," there's not much room to address the FACTS of the underlying principles.

      Rhetoric, indeed. Truth beats fantasy every time, and this trip was no exception.

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    12. "Look at our constant wars."

      No, YOU look at them, Dan. And then YOU figure out why YOU engage a philosophy, not to mention a style, that serves to start even more of them.

      Don't worry so much about my mirror. The guy in that one doesn't start wars...not trade wars, not religious wars and not political wars. Et tu?

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  9. Within it all, everything, the movement back towards Liberty, the great awakening, there is something, a cautionary tale, something of old our founders understood without reservation, a profound thing, something TL put into succinct vernacular:

    "It is not ours to restore the power of the Constitution. It is ours to show them the wrath of America without the protections the Constitution offers them.

    Let them restore it to find refuge from us."

    The crux of TL's statement, of the core truth of our Liberty, is something even more basic, that Liberty floats all our boats, it separates us all from something dark 5000 years old, we, who cling to the gospel of our Liberty, and those too, who are not yet lucidly conscience of the ground below their feet, but know something is very wrong, separates us from the savages at our gates, lifts us above the pathology and tyranny of the "elites", yes I'm saying with out a shred of doubt, it is us who are the enlightened, us who are the civilized, illuminated by that shining light of the city on the hill, by the very nature of our worship for our primal rights, our faiths, belief in something larger and grander than only ourselves, for, it is our ruling class who are the barbarian's at the gates of our Vienna, eroding our defenses of our rule of law, our republics security of economic prosperity, of our freedom of worship of faith in the great creator, it is these mandarin's who are savage, savages with malice and greed and truly evil treason, within their hearts, who are the 21st century mongol horde. It is they who are the enemy at our gates of Liberty, Freedom and Prosperity.

    Israel?
    Oh ya everybody, we loose Israel, it is going to be a dark thing, a darkness on the soul of the world, on Liberty.
    I say it is our sister in Liberty, and us, who are all that stands in the way of the hordes of the world arrayed against the last and only existing bastions of Liberty.
    The very fact Israel and America are under attack, speaks truth to power of how precious Liberty is.

    Look at the savages within our ranks, they infest every branch of Our government, they are insidious, from our town halls to our oval office, it is a plague of vermin eating out our very existence, they are like a virus, they consume everything until they destroy their host.

    But we are the cure, we who hold in our hearts the gospel of Liberty.
    It is we who are the Heroes.
    It is we who must vanquish the savages of tyranny.
    It is time.

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  10. So TL, in your essay admonishing me as a most frightenng "isolationist", you are making the argument that the past has nothing to do with the present ? Your argument that the Vietnam debacle example I gave doesn't apply today as it was a "past decade", a "different world today"....only tells me you don't believe in the United States Constitution as written !

    You've provided me the conclusion that your mentality resides in the realm of the statists and Progressives who believe the US Constitution is a "living document". Your statement of the Vietnam War being another decade tells me our Constitution means nothing to you today as it was written in another CENTURY 225 years ago !

    You claim you love freedom ? By whose definition ? Certainly not those old fogey, long dead, different century Founding Fathers who gave us the Declaration of Independence and our long, trampled Constitution.

    You are just another Neocon more than willing to bless this once great nation's destruction through unending war and foreign entanglement. Sad.

    DAN III
    "There Are Enemies Amongst Us"

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