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Tuesday, December 6, 2011

Reveal Your Inner Virtue

In the long march toward liberty it is sometimes difficult to see how we get from where we are today, with everything we know regulated in some fashion by the federal government, to where we want to be. Over at Western Rifle Shooters Association, we find a plea for secessionist sentiment. Read the post and especially the comments. Where are you? These are the sorts of conversations that should be held at the Liberty Summit, it is the purpose for the Liberty Summit.

Either you are serious about this liberty thing, or you are not. You are either struggling with your conscience, or you are blowing smoke. I don't mean that anyone who has not made the decision to stand up for liberty is blowing smoke, I am suggesting that if you are at the point in your life where you realize that you need to make a stand, but are struggling with "how" to do that and what will work and where the line is drawn, then you have a long way to go to get to the "action" part of that equation.

Maybe you don't believe in any of this, that the parasite society has taken such hold that there is no avenue that offers the sort of liberty we once knew. Consider that a good 97% of those engaged in the Revolutionary War felt the same way. Are you then suggesting that those held under the iron hand of the Soviet Union were powerless? Are you suggesting that Mubarak had too tight of a grip on Egypt, or that Quadaffi had too tight of a grip on Libya? What are you saying by abstaining from the engagement of ideas?

Working in the oil field I see all manner of hemming and hawing about the environment, as if there is a way that an oil company is somehow going to "win over" the environmentalists. They would do better by appealing directly to the public and call bs on the caterwalling of the environmentalist group, point out what they are doing to protect their operations from affecting the environment adversely as a matter of duty to their fellow Americans, not as some lame attempt to keep the protesters from their corporate offices.

All around us are examples of inaction. We are the people who make the nation run. We are the workers, the middle-management, the lawyers, the business owners who daily create the weapons with which we are being clubbed about the head. We are, to some degree, either morons or cowards. No, no one wants to make some statement that could get them put into jail as an isolated conservative nut with ties to the Tea Party, or Mike Vanderboegh and his infamous book. That is the club they will use and because we have never done a dang thing about it, they use it often.

I don't know what will happen to me as a result of something said at the summit that will place me in some sort of conspiracy, or terrorist plot. I don't really care. I should, I have a daughter who is looking to go to college next year. I have debts that I still need to pay. I have a promising career that is just now getting going and will supply me with a great deal of money and time as things progress. And yes, I too struggle with how and when I make a move to secure liberty to myself and my posterity. Right now my daughter wants tuition more than liberty. Right now I want to give her tuition more than liberty, but the motion of the world does not turn on my convenience.

There is a time to stand up, to take the chance to come together and openly discuss that which must be discussed, debated and even vehemently argued over. Lately Mike Vanderboegh visited the Liberty Summit website and refused to have anything to do with it due to some attendees with which he takes exception. All right, I respect that, even if I don't agree with it.

It is the time for the true advocates of liberty to take that chance, risk that encounter, accept that some of those who attend will not feel the same way you do, or will go about it in a way that you don't condone. In Mike's case, he would rather keep his distance from people whom he considers to be less than honorable. Again, I do not agree with his assessment, but it is his assessment and I just wish he would put that aside and recognize that if liberty is to be attained, it will have to be fought for, sometimes at the shoulder of someone you don't trust.

Likewise, I will be inviting First Amendment advocates with whom most of us might disagree and the same for the Fourth Amendment advocates. The hope is that somewhere amid the hoped for engagements we recognize that none of us will achieve the liberty we seek without the aid of the others. That either liberty becomes a rallying cry for all of the injustices of the current police-state (and I use that term with caution, but what is your fear if you fail to comply? It is that they will first fine, you. When that fine is not paid, they will send the police around to either accept your fine or imprison you. What happens when you throw cardboard into the "used oil" bin at the local recycling center? It could mean jail as an ultimate outcome of failure to comply).

Let's have the conversations necessary to forge some cross-currents to our separate movements. Let them recoil in horror at your suggestion of action, but let them hear it. Is there a way? Is there some avenue that even if they disagree with one group's methods, would they not support the outcome? That is the tough one to come to grips with.

As for myself and some of you, it is difficult to know when to act and what to do as that action. Is it to decide to peacefully and politically "invade" a state and transform it into something that will accommodate our agenda toward liberty? Is it building on momentum already begun in this area and to throw our weight behind it? I have chosen the Liberty Summit as my first action toward that goal. It is not my first action intended to achieve liberty, but my first action in the determined struggle toward the goal with or without political support.

There was a moment in time when I believed that my goal could be accomplished politically. I no longer feel that is true. If liberty is to be attained it can only be attained through direct action of one sort or another. Steps must be taken, if for no other reason than to be ready for the crash that is inevitable. Or do you really believe that the European debt crisis can be solved by the US backed IMF to loan money borrowed from China to pay the debt of Greece, Italy and Spain? Really?

So what happens when that ecnomic crisis occurs? Will we be like the Arab Spring and rearrange our society to fit our desires, or will we let the collectivists and anti-capitalists step into that void? We know they are ready. They have support in every quarter of American society and bankrolled ironically by those wealthy who are being directly targeted. Oh, the elite have a plan to take that momentum directed at them and U-turn it onto us, I recognize that, but from the objective point of view it makes no sense, which is exactly why they will be able to do it.

All of this unless we act now to take the steps that bring us to that point, where we have consolidated sentiment toward liberty and away from the collectivists and anti-capitalists. What happens when we declare our opposition to the current system? What happens when we blame that on the true culprits, the regulators and adminsitrators of the bureaucracy. Will there be enough who in their gut know we are right and turn their sentiments to us? The history books are full of such opportunities and had the right thing taken place the horrible things would not have taken place.

I know it is an over-used quote, but here it goes: the only thing evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing. It is our virtue, our honor that could win out, but not if we keep it secret and hidden under the covers to protect it.

44 comments:

  1. TL,
    Well that is what it is really all about. It is what makes Liberty more than an idea.
    You have to stand for something.
    And sometimes you have to make a stand for that something regardless of the consequences, in fact, because of the consequences too.

    Is that what you meant by "The Gospel of Liberty?
    It is what I think you meant.
    It is what I feel in my heart of hearts.

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  2. "Or do you really believe that the European debt crisis can be solved by the US backed IMF to loan money borrowed from China to pay the debt of Greece, Italy and Spain? Really?" - T.L. Davis

    Maybe that has been the plan all along. aka, NWO, One World Government.

    “I’m here in Germany, of course, to emphasize how important it is to the United States and to the world economy as a whole that Germany and France succeed alongside the other nations of Europe in building a stronger Europe,” Geithner said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-06/french-german-plan-gets-geithner-backing.html

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-07/djia-14-000-depends-on-u-s-saying-we-re-all-in-this-with-europe.html

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  3. Well stated T.L.

    Pickdog
    III

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  4. Mt Top, yes, that is what I meant by the Gospel of Liberty, a concept so appealing one cannot prevent themselves from proclaiming it to everyone they know.

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  5. I think that some care should be exercised as to who we align ourselves with. I don't think that the skin-head and neo-nazi groups would make for good compatriots. But other than that, if someone that I'm not really crazy about would stand side-by-side with me in this fight, I'm not about to complain. As Franklin said, we must all hang together, or assuredly, we shall all hang separately.

    I'm with you, TL, for as long as it takes to take this country back, or die in the process. I'm signed up for 5/11, and good Lord willing and the creeks don't rise, I'll be there.

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  6. TPaine, (one of my favorites, btw) The date is not scheduled officially, yet. I will be asking for a vote soon.

    The place is still up in the air as well due to a likewise desire to leave it up to the attendees as much as possible so that this doesn't look like TL calls all the shots and makes all the decisions.

    TL

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  7. TL how long have you been fight the political fight?
    It has taken a hundred years for the progresives to get us here. It might take us the same to get us back.
    Some of us our being a little impatient I think.
    The left has always kicked the can down the road one little gain at a time. Can we do no less?
    As to your friend concern, all it will take is one lose cannon, to tie the mantle of nut job around all our necks.

    My 2 Cents,
    Josh

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  8. To be clear.

    There is a deference in defending my rights and taking overt actions to force my will on others. The 1st Amendments first for a reason.

    Josh

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  9. Right now my daughter wants tuition more than liberty. Right now I want to give her tuition more than liberty, but the motion of the world does not turn on my convenience.
    For your daughter:

    http://www.collegetransfer.net/ContinueMyEducation/ChangeSwitchTransfer/Iwantto/EarnMyCollegeDegree/TestingOutofCollegeCourses/tabid/916/Default.aspx

    http://www.collegetransfer.net/Articles/IWantToApply/ForTestingOutOfCollegeCourses/tabid/2318/default.aspx

    http://testingoutofcollege.com/category/testout/

    just some info

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  10. Josh K, let me tell you a little something. I won't be alive in a hundred years, but my children and grandchildren will and I cannot trust anyone in politics today to do anything other than continue to kick the can down the road.

    There probably won't be an America in 100.

    But, the biggest thing I have to say to you is I think you are a Soros Drone, I have had plenty of them come to this page, to try and quell whatever talk of liberty and freedom I might be spouting. It started when I proposed the Guardians of Liberty and I think you are just one of those folks. Sorry.

    First, you propose that I not pursue this liberty summit of people who might do something about losing theirs and wanting it back. And why? Because we might be considered nuts. In a totalitarian society anyone who pursues freedom is "nuts" so I kind of see where you are coming from there.

    The second thing you wrote was about taking NO action, but talking about it more. The Second Amendment is there to ensure the First and subsequent Amendments, because these are "inalienable" rights. Do you know what that means? Do you know what "inalienable" means? No, you don't, or you wouldn't be a Soros Drone and you wouldn't have proposed that my daughter solve my problem and hers of tuition by the method that you did.

    If you are in fact a conservative or call yourself one, then we are in much more trouble than I thought.

    Here's the deal, you enjoy your liberty a hundred years from now, and I will fight for mine today.

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  11. You quote me one place where I said take mo action.
    The are positive actions abd negative actions.

    What is your goal? Is it to make a bold statment? Is it to promote the idea of Liberty?

    You can not promote Liberty with a use of force thats the road that leads to Tyranny and slavery.

    Goerge Whitfield spent 50-60 years promoting freedom. So, when the time was right 3% actively partisapated 20% suported the 3%, around 40% stayed out of it. snd 20% suported the British in some fashion.

    You don't want to lay the ground work then you want have to choose where to gave it. It will be choosen for you.

    http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-national-defense-authorization-act-opens-the-door-to-a-police-state/

    http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/850586-national-defense-authorization-act-bill/

    Inalienably - Hmmm... :-) As soon that word was used it put into the mind that we didn't have to promote or defend our rights. That we didn't have to promote them and pass them mattle of responsibility to protect them on to our children. You can give rights away by believing that they ate given by the State.
    You want to use the lefts tactic of name calling instead of debating this out. F**k you too for the Soros comment, abd you're a big giant poopoo head too.

    Mine and my own will be supporting Freedom and Liberty for as long as it takes. Freedom and Liberty can only be won in the hearts and minds of the People, can not be forced on to people.

    My 2 cents,
    Josh

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  12. Correction - "You don't want to lay the ground work then you want have to choose where to gave it. It will be choosen for you."

    You don't want to lay the ground work then you want have to choose where to 'have your summit. It will be choosen for you.

    Sorry, thought got a little jumbled there.

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  13. TL,
    I'm gonna stick up for you.

    I think Josh is afraid of something.
    I don't sense genuine concern for Liberty in his words. Only concern for what is in it for him and his. Fear of something may not be gained if Liberty is ventured into in its entirety.
    Which by rights is his Liberty to be concerned with.
    But we are a nation full of millions who are afraid of stepping up and standing for something no matter what. It is conviction of ones principles, and the virtue needed to stand in the storm we miss so much. True Grit is what it is. Fortitude. Bravery to go forward knowing it may be the last thing, but doing it anyway. Courage. It why we are in the mess we are in in the first place.

    But Liberty is not something that is owed to anybody. It can only be created in the most unselfish manner by each and everyone of us. It is that proverbial ground below our feet.
    I think Josh is of a kind, folks who for a myriad of reasons can not see past their self interest, it is also why he missed the whole point of your piece here. Still that is his Liberty.
    The point being Liberty as our founders intended is something larger than all of us. Something better, but only better because of us, by the profound thing of leaving more than you take, leaving something better than you received.
    My question is how can one believe in something like Liberty if one does not believe in something larger than oneself?

    TL, you have stepped up, you have put your best foot forward. You have taken risks for something larger than yourself, even knowing the peril of doing so, even at the risk of your wife and daughter and livelihood, and regardless of the risks, you continue to do so.
    Well in my book there is much merit in this. I have much to live up to in this light. there is everything to be said in your defense. If for no other reason we got to stick together, because if we don't we all go down. But that is not the reason, it is not the why.
    The why is we are all in this together, we are all subject to the same infringements and abuses of our Liberty. Tyranny is an equal opportunity thing. It don't care if Josh, or TL or Mt Top Patriot is crushed beneath its jackboot. We are gravy for the goose. We Are Expendable. We are nothing.
    In Liberty, we are everything.
    We Are Liberty.

    As an aside to Josh, Josh, your rationale of Liberty is not Liberty if your Liberty imposes itself on me.
    You place conditions and stipulations on it, qualifiers and limits, which you say have to take place because of this or that reason. By that the very nature of Liberty ceases to exist, its very essence is negated. It is an oxymoron of profound nature.
    There are no separate "Liberties".
    That is really the question of the day. Liberty is imperiled in its entirety the moment it is infringed. Infringement in any form, for any rationale, is unacceptable. It is that simple.
    The 1st, the 2nd, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, what have you, are so inextricably intertwined as to be one and the same. Like relatives, one can not pick or choose between "liberties".

    The answer is it is Liberty or it is not.
    As Patrick Henry succinctly put it:
    "Give me Liberty or give me death"

    There simply can be no quarter in this.
    If you have a problem with this, take a moment to ask yourself a question: How has it all worked out with the infringements imposed on us all today?

    Not too well I say.
    Not too well at all.
    and I Know there is something better, far far better. That is where my interest, my convictions and my courage lay.
    It is men and women of this cloth I want to be in the company of.
    The cloth of our founders.

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  14. But with liberty comes the freedom to be stupid and to fail to not choose liberty.

    Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law,” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual.

    - Thomas Jefferson

    Because we don't like what others are doing with their free will, do we have the right to take it from them?
    Because the path of public debate is slow, do we have the right to use force to get what we want with out a direct threat to Life or Liberty? We have had some infringements nothing that is not reversible. Hell we don't have anyone even in any camps yet.

    The Tea Parties are not even 5yrs old yet, and some have already written them off.

    We are starting to turn the tied of the debate. At no time have I said anything about not preparing and organizing.

    The Weather Underground thought that they would probable have to kill 25million people, those that couldn't be re-educated. That's a lot of infringing on peoples right to life.

    Because, if you believe political action will no longer work then that means preparing to survive the collapse or ...... well this isn't some V for Vendetta movie.

    My 2 cents,
    Josh

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  15. Sigh..... man I suck at using the written word to comunicate my thoughts.

    Correction - "But with liberty comes the freedom to be stupid and to fail to not choose liberty." to this:

    But with liberty comes the freedom to be stupid, to fail, to not choose liberty.

    People choose to slave themselves to things and dept all the time.

    :-(
    Josh

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  16. I appreciate you sticking up for me Mt. Top, as you probably know from this blog, I let everyone have their say. I don't restrict comments and I don't take issue even when I am criticized, or even told F*** You.

    And Josh, since you might be new to this blog, I don't know, you have the right to say anything here. I will not restrict comments. But, you are in the realm of those who take this most seriously and might very well come across those like Mt. Top who take issue with you.

    This is liberty, this is free speech. I only demand that it does not devolve into name-calling and personal attacks. The Soros bit was due to the true facts that I have seen them ALOT at this blog.

    Down to the question, though. You constantly speak of me forcing someone to do something or taking their rights when I have only advocated keeping mine. I don't understand your logic there.

    In everything I have written I have never demanded that anyone flush their toilet with a certain amount of water, or only be allowed light bulbs of a certain type.

    I have never restricted anyone's liberty through my words, so I don't see how liberty-minded people gathering to make commitments to each other about the line in the sand and the aid of each other in this effort to win back those rights that are inalienable, in other words, they must be ripped from our bodies, they must be alienated from our being to be violated. That sir, is an assault on one's being, that is something to fight for and if you don't see that, you are part of the problem.

    Please do not just accuse me of denying anyone's liberty when I have only advocated the sincere protection of mine and others.

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  17. Sorry, Overreacted to the Soros comment I'm more if a Glenn Beck Clone if anything. It sound to me like you lumping me in with the Siros croud as a way to negate what I was saying.
    ;-)
    Sorry, I started this off with a question and new discussion thread on The Liberty Summit meet up.

    You have stated that you don't beleive we can solve this politicly anymore, and it's time to stand up and take 'action.'
    (Is this a fair representation of your position?)

    I'm looking for a clearer definition of what you mean by action. If debate is of the table, what is left?.....Are we looking at a French, American or India's style revolt/opposition to the state? Maybe I'm jumping a grad and this is what the Summits for, but at lest we should be thinking about this now.

    I do find it ironic that the guy that wants to continue the debate sucks at the written word, and the guy that is good at it is for moving beyond it ....
    :-)
    I was trying to keep this as a general discussion about liberty, and maybe there was an nother form of action that I was missing that wasn't debate or force of arms.

    Mt. Top is more than welcome to call me out on anything feels he needs to, thats what debate is all about. I he's not the first that, probable, thinks I'm an ass, he won't be the last.

    Hmmmm.....

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  18. All right Josh, I can see you are a good sport, that you are willing to debate.

    First, "action" is intentionally loosely defined. What actions have you taken to secure your liberty? Have you refused to comply with obviously unconstitutional laws? Are you willing to go to prison if that's what it takes to insist on your rights?

    You seem to have jumped from action to some sort of violence to people.

    Action might be anything as long as the goal is to secure liberty. I would be the sort of despot I detest if I were to tell people what to do, or tried to obtain a specific outcome of the summit. Wouldn't it just be TL's get together in order to honor him?

    The way I see it, each individual is a sovereign being, the only one able to represent them with any clarity.

    If you want liberty and there is someone there willing to deny it to you, you have not done the wicked thing, they have. Standing up for liberty and even being willing to go to war to obtain it, is a noble thing, not a shameful thing. Because the world is full of despots who abuse, harass and punish those who do not go along, those who object to having their stuff taken and their family harmed, but fighting back against that oppression is not criminal, it is not immoral, it is immoral to let generations be born under that autocratic dictator, who would impose his will (in this case the will of the government against the people, the government workers over the taxpayers) on them simply with might. Rarely does that society breed heros, it breeds slaves.

    But, those types never go away, or even if they do they are replaced by others either better or worse and so the people choose the known and pray for better without doing one single thing to make that change.

    We are worse in America because we let ourselves believe the nonsense the politicians dish out about freedom and liberty and justice. We know it is not true and we known that we have not been a great nation since we decided to succumb to the corruption of our souls.

    To redeem those souls and give the gift of liberty to our children should be the only purpose of anyone in the United States, for we are all guilty of allowing it.

    Action, Josh, is anything that brings about that confrontation with our masters in whatever form that might be, legal, social or even revolutionary.

    Liberty is our birthright and if we will not stand to secure it, it will be lost in the hypnosis of security for perhaps another millenia.

    TL

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  19. Thank you TL, I wasn't trying to imply anythy, but to point out that what you mean by action might not be what someone else thinks you ment by it.

    What youwrote is beautifully written. But I would like to add; It is not enough that we stand up, but that we must teach our children to stand up, and they must teach their children...; so, that all future generations will continue be guardians of liberty too. This debate must always be on a free peoples mind.

    :-)
    Josh

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  20. Dear Josh,
    I do not think you are an ass, not in the least. If anything I have come to realize you are a brave soul for not taking the cheap way out by taking part in our common dialog taking place regardless. I just learned something from you, that we all have to listen to each other with more than our ears especially if we are strangers, because the thing is we are not, we are Americans.
    It is such a travesty, here we are in this time that finds us wandering in a wilderness, we are so many who are alone, we have so little tangible support, there are so many things arrayed against us, in terrible dastardly ways.
    Here we are in this great place called America, this land of plenty, of incredible industriousness and ingenuity, the place that took a 5000 year leap, and because of the hate and greed and insanity of a handful of despicable human beings, so many are destitute, bereft of a proper inner compass, cursed by an agenda bent on keeping so many ignorant till it is too late. Or so they hope.
    But you see Josh, we all learn something valuable and precious when we stick together and stick it out no matter what, something priceless.
    When are we, what is the key, to the realization us who believe in Liberty, we are not alone?

    That is what TL intended for I believe when the call for a summit was established. It was for the most basic and peaceful of reasons. It is for all the right reasons. It is time.
    No more wandering in a wilderness of division, tyranny and doubt.
    It is a gestalt that changes the entire dynamic, it is a narrative without words of immense power of the Sovereign.
    It is the paradigm I think so many of us instinctively suspect but have not understood in its entirety.
    Do you understand TL how big this is?
    Because it was a really good call Dude!
    I'm just beginning to see it.
    How about you Josh? What say you?

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  21. I'm going to need a code of conduct, What standards are we going to hold our selves to? The decusions at the Lyberty Summit Meet Up Group have thrown up some red flags for me. Still planning on going to at least one of the get togethers.

    Will see, I have misanthropic tendancies and high standards,
    :-)
    Josh

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  22. HEY!

    What about all of you out there lurking in the shadows reading TL's blog?!

    I know your out there.
    Come out come out wherever you are!

    What do you say?
    Huh?

    Come on Ladies and Gents.
    It is time to discover you ain't alone any longer.
    Truth is you have never been alone, just isolated.
    We all got to join up in some fashion. It is the source of our greatest power.

    What say you?

    Come on you guys.

    One way or another we are all like the pig, committed.
    Gonna have to deal with this sooner or later. No one gets to sit this one out or a free ride no more.
    Liberty is waiting for you.
    Liberty is the only thing that matters, it is the only thing that counts. liberty is the only thing gonna save us.
    Make no mistake, Liberty is you and me.
    Might as well get your things in order and get with like minded folks. We are all going to need all the friends we can get.
    The crap is going to hit the fan. The world is like a big Zit ready to pop.
    Your Fellow Americans are waiting on you.
    Waiting just like you.
    What are you waiting on?
    Unleash a wave.

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  23. Sorry TL, How are we supposed to get to know each other if we can't ask each other question. Do a little probing. Test boundaries.

    I don't know?

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  24. We are so focused on the 'Them' and what 'They' are doing. Is the question; What 'Action' do I need to take against 'Them,' or is it, What 'Action' do I need to take to break the bonds of slavery that we have placed around our selves.

    I wound how many people that talk Liberty still have credit cards or student loan debt or could fix any of their crap the
    they've accumulated. So, what are we doing to make ourselves more independent and to foster that spirit of Independence in others.

    Liberty is not the exercise of free will, but the exercise of Personal Responsibility with respect for others.

    If we take down the system with out any infrastructure, or system in place, we won't get liberty we will get Anarchy.

    I was accused of being a Soros plant, but at lest he understands that you have to lay the ground work, if you are to get what you want after the change. It took our Founding Fathers 10 years after the revolution to get a stable government in place that wasn't on the verge of Anarchy.
    That their own Army almost revolted on them as they couldn't feed or pay them. There an old Army adage that says amatures study tactics and straragy, profesionals study logistics.

    http://www.enlisted.info/field-manuals/fm-700-80-logistics.shtml

    http://www.enlisted.info/field-manuals/fm-701-58-planning-logistics-support-for-military-operations.shtml

    We talk about all the strategy and tactics all day doesn't mean will achieve our objectives or be able to hold them.

    I won't be exercising free speech any more at the meet up group, I get so frustrated comunicating in this medium.

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  25. Sorry, TL,

    I'm not a joiner. I don't play well with others. I'll help ascI can and if it doesn't conflict with my stated goals snd ethics.

    Take care and good luck,
    Josh A. Kruschke

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  26. Josh, I fear you missed the point entirely. This is exactly what the summit is for. The time has come to overlook our personal differences and stand together, united as one.

    From your posts it seems your more concerned with personal agenda's and enjoy conflicting with others. Sacrifices are going to be made by all in this.

    Perhaps as times grow more foul you will come to a better understanding of what needs to be done and why.

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  27. No, All I did was ask some question try to find out what every one exactly believed. If my answers where not on lock step with every one else. I got called a name and my patriotism questioned. I just don't go along to get along. I'm going to say when I think some things fishy.
    I never questioned anyone's patritism, at the end there Iwas questioning there integraty and intelligences, but that was indirect responses to how I was being treated.

    You are just looking for validation, not debate, so I stepped out. When someone calls for the silencing of dissent, and no one speaks out against it and for the free expresion of ideas, then that group has no integrity.

    I see in your group, all ready, all the qualities I despises in the left.

    This makes me sad,
    Josh

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  28. We believe in the way of the militia, not the military. No one is required to fall in "lock step". The trouble I saw was when you received an answer you didn't like, that answer was ignored and the questions repeated.

    Also; when it comes to debate, expect rebuttals. Simply because someone doesn't agree or isn't swayed by your line of reasoning does not mean they have despicable qualities.

    Learn to except the answers people give (even if you don't like or agree with them). Not everyone will answer your questions, so pay attention to their posts and decipher where they stand.

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  29. Begin at the beginning. Every person alive is motivated by one thing and one thing only...his own free will. He may devise whatever standards and values he wishes, and he can be physically overpowered, but in the absence of being overpowered, he is ONLY and ALWAYS driven by his own free will. Sleepwalking and convulsions are the only exceptions. Drugs may affect his free will, but they don't eradicate it.

    Freedom is free will manifested in a social context. We ARE free, and the only way to stop this freedom is through outright, plain physical force. Period. There is no other way. Persuasion, fear and so on may AFFECT our free will, but once again they cannot eradicate it. They cannot cause our bodies to move in any manner other than how we decide.

    Liberty is the acknowledgement that we are all likewise situated, owing to this simple undeniable fact. Capitalism is the manifestation of this acknowledgement...men trading as they wish with one another for the mutual benefit of all involved. That is, it's all good, or at least as good as the judgment of the participants. If they are sensibly and properly serving themselves, then everyone wins.

    ANY denial of this, which again can only be accomplished with physical force, is a denial of Liberty. This makes such a denial a denial of fact, a denial of our nature, a falsehood, an error, a mistake...WRONG.

    Liberty only needs to be secured against those who would physically deny it, and it turns out that's an extreme minority. They just happen to talk some fancy words, convincing everyone that it's really in their best interest to deny other people's liberty. It never is, because to deny another man's liberty is to treat him as he is not, and a rational man never treats a thing as it is not.

    It's just been a giant fraud all along. "But if you're free, then aren't you free to steal?" Well no, because it's a SOCIAL CONTEXT among beings likewise situated. Saying it's okay to steal from the next guy, implies that it's okay to steal from you. How tough is that to figure out? It's also why "freedom to murder" is an oxymoron; freedom MEANS you can't murder, again because it's a social context and we're all likewise situated. "All men are created equal."

    When rational men choose to live together, trade among each other, and keep the thugs who would deny them their liberty out of the way, then everything will be fixed. It sounds terribly idealistic, but it really is quite that simple.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, I do believe Josh is engaging some "floating abstractions," but he's very, very right about one thing. As long as men believe liberty is about something other than their own freedom to do as they see in their own best interest, then nothing will ever work out right. And yes, that would make me sad too.

    A man can choose to serve God or his family or his community or whatever, but until that man is free to make the choices he decides--that is, to instantiate his free will--then we're just going to be revisiting these same problems over and over and over again. As we've seen. Forever.

    A Liberty Summit is a grand idea, if it's to establish the foundational bases of liberty. If it's just to start yet another go-round of calling some other imposition "liberty," then nobody needs it. Considering TL's insight into Capitalism and the individual freedom it requires, my bet is on the former.

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  30. Jim -

    Poeple freely give up their freedoms all the time. Fear is the bigest stealer of them all. Feed me; protect me and you can tell me what to do. What do you think welfare is. It's volintary slavery.

    Some people aren't motivated by freedom but by finding a precived sense of security.

    Some people are more than happy to be told what to do; as long as they feel safe and secure.

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  31. Josh is right, the first order of the day is security. To an undeveloped mind security is the only concern. The willingness to be subject to a king who provides security is ancient. "just let me live within the protection of the castle" can be heard over the millenia.

    However, the sophisticated mind sees that security while a slave is an undesireable condition and that to become one's own master while taking the risks that entail is the impetus to our republic.

    That we have devolved back into a security-dominant society is the problem and the solution is to reteach the sophisticated view. This is why it is so difficult, but where none demonstrate this condition of liberty, it is much harder to make the case for liberty.

    I have proposed the summit to arrive at a means of demonstrating the sophisticated view.

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  32. Well, "safety first" and all that; that's sensible enough. A man can't be free if he's not alive. And Josh is right that lots of people will yield their liberty in trade for (imagined!) security.

    But so what? Who cares? The problem with welfare isn't that people give up their lives to have it. Okay, that's their problem, but not mine. The problem with welfare is that they can't have it without the producers. That's where the slavery comes in, and that's why it's wrong, at least socially.

    Sure, security is a physical matter and it's critical. But even then, it doesn't require mooching the production of others. It involves rational men understanding its necessity. It's like food---rational men require that too, but they don't need to steal it from others.

    I guess I'm just saying that this is all hierarchical. Men need food and they need security. My point here would be that liberty is even superior to these hierarchically, because free will is the manner by which men obtain these things. Cut that off, and you've cut off everything else...as our current situation demonstrates.

    I don't care if the looters and moochers are evil or just stupid. Either way, they're killing us all.

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  33. Moochers and Looters are two different animals.

    http://the-tao-of-josh.blogspot.com/2010/12/moochs-and-looters.html

    In the Moochers case who's the slave; the giver or receiver? No forces is used.

    Here's our misunderstanding boiled down. The point I've been trying to make, ever so poorly, is this you can't forces some to start thinking for themselves, you can only show them how and try to convince them it's in their best interest to do so.

    Also, I am not a Pacifist. I just don't believe that fource of arms is the solution to our problems at this time.

    It might be helpful if you infirmed the at ghe Liberty Summit forms that I can still read them just not post. Talking about people behind their back is just rude.

    TL. I would still like to come as I can support this, at lest at face value, "I have proposed the summit to arrive at a means of demonstrating the sophisticated view." - TL

    I'm just not going to participate and give them a target for name calling in forms there.

    I got a post coming it will be a little while before a finish fleshing (almost wrote flushing) it out.

    Take care,
    Josh

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  34. "Moochers and Looters are two different animals. http://the-tao-of-josh.blogspot.com/2010/12/moochs-and-looters.html"

    No thanks; I understand the point. Now you try to understand my point about floating abstractions---which of the two are most politicians?

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  35. Polititions are are both and neither, depending on the politician. But most of the Political power base is formed on supling moochers with stuff, and a lot of that is by being a Looter. If people become self-reliant, what would polititions build thier power base on?
    Thats the 64,000 dollar question I'm trying to answer.
    You could take out all the politicians out of the equastipn and the moochers would still be there.

    Can Moochers be taught personal responsibility and how to be self-reliant?

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  36. P.S . Ben Franklin thought yes, and I tend to agree with him.

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  37. "Polititions are are both and neither, depending on the politician."

    Q.E.D.

    It would be nice, but you don't have to teach personal responsibility. It's our natural state, since it just means "using one's mind to live." Put a man in a spot where he can't steal food from others, and he'll figure out how to earn it.

    Don't believe me? Drop him on a deserted island and see if he makes his way. It has to be taught NOT to be personally responsible; that's why the moocher/looters sink trillions into the educational systems.

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  38. I disagree mans natural state is to be lazy; i.e., to do as little for as much gain. The more efficiently you can provide food and shelter the more free time you have to procreate.

    This leads into my theory of Good Lazy and Bad Lazy. (a post on my blog)

    If I can talk someone into providing security and shelter...

    Also, your example is flawed not everyone will be able to figure out on theirown how to survive before they would starve to death.

    All mem might have the ability to think, but not all men think well. (Paraphrasing Edward de Bono)

    The ability to think and reason effectively is a skill like anything it must learned. Learning comes in two forms; experiance and through transmission. Some find thinking easer than others, but it is a skill.

    If I drop a 5 year old on an island, how long before he starves? Ones level of education and understand of the world matters in ones ability to make ones way through it successfully.

    In your example; some would figure out an honest way to make a living, some would turn to theft out right and some would perish. But not all as you imply would figure it out.

    Hmmm...

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  39. Also my answer was not QED.

    Your question, "Now you try to understand my point about floating abstractions---which of the two are most politicians?" is largely subjective and unanswerable with the answer being a guess and not based in fact (reality).

    Where you looking for me to say, "Most politicians are looters." If I made that statment, it would of been based on an assumption, as I have not quantified the data I do not no the true answer. It has been my limited experiance that polititions are of all three persuasions moochers, looters and producers.
    Rand Pual what camp does he fall in.

    And by the way I did answer you question, "...and a lot of that is by being a Looter." Where you looking for a gestimation with number like; 95% of all polititions are Looters?

    Flooting Abstraction: Politician = Looter. Now thats a flooting abstraction. The reality is people are individuals, and you need to take that into your calculations/logic problem.

    :-)
    Josh

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  40. Josh, the only thing more natural for man than being lazy is war.

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  41. Some time that is the easest way to get what you want.
    Just take it, but with all conflict there's the risk that you will lose more than you gain.

    Josh

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  42. "I disagree mans natural state is to be lazy..."

    Speak for yourself please, and see my request just posted here. TIA

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  43. "Some time that is the easest way to get what you want. Just take it, but with all conflict there's the risk that you will lose more than you gain."

    Aw, shit. Where are you getting this stuff? Either get the hell out of school or stop reading books. And no, I won't discuss this with you here. But I won't let this slide either, just in case there might be a single reader who misunderstands.

    A person ALWAYS loses more than he gains when he steals from others. I am going to explain why in five sentences, which were taken from here...

    http://www.presenceofmind.net/GSW/Delight.html

    "In every choice you make, in every action you take, in each of your thoughts and in each of your deeds, you are acting upon your self. By your attitudes and your habits of mind and your internal and external behaviors, you are acting either to complete and burnish and exalt your ego--or to dismantle and deface and destroy it.

    "This is an inescapable ontological fact. This is what it means essentially to have a reasoning, recollecting mind. Skyscrapers and symphonies, on the one hand, and squalor and slaughter, on the other--these are secondary consequences. Every action in every human life is first taken by the ego upon the ego."

    If you wanna "argue" about this, Josh, then take it to where I requested. I'm already sorry about the bad language on TL's blog, but this is a FACT which simply must be presented. So I present it, and that's that. I'll look for your "arguments" elsewhere. Have a pleasant night.

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